Kidults: When the Nest Doesn't Empty | Jo Lamble | Club Sandwich
Your kid finished school years ago. They're 22, or 27, or 33. So why are you still doing their washing? Clinical psychologist Jo Lamble is in the chair for the layer of the sandwich generation nobody names.
Content note: this is a lighter, funnier episode than most, although the last few minutes touch briefly on ageing parents and visiting a grandparent in aged care. For support: Relationships Australia 1300 364 277 (relationships.org.au). Carer Gateway 1800 422 737. Lifeline 13 11 14, 24/7.
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In this episode:
The Conversation: Clinical psychologist and regular Clubber Jo Lamble joins Sarah Macdonald to talk about adult children still living at home, or boomeranging back — why cushioning them stops working the moment they finish school, the anxiety of waiting up at night (and why earplugs actually help), the four-layer club sandwich of caring for an ageing parent, yourself, adult kids and grandkids all at once, and why "we've got to advertise adulthood" instead of just surviving it.
This Week's Hack: Stop parenting, start being flatmates. Call a house meeting. Announce it, don't slide it in sideways. Agree on the basics a good flatmate keeps: give each other space, split the chores, don't comment on clothes or friends, and raise problems on the spot instead of storing them up for three months and exploding.
Send this to: whoever is still doing their 25-year-old's washing, or anyone who feels like a nag for asking their adult kid to do their own.
A moment that stays: Jo's line for anyone who thinks it's "not fair" to want a life outside caregiving — some young adults are choosing not to have kids because they watched their own mum run herself ragged and never once look like she was enjoying it. We've got to advertise adulthood.
Meet the regular Clubbers:
Melissa Reader — CEO of Vera and expert on Australia's ageing crisis.
Jo Lamble — Clinical psychologist specialising in guilt and family dynamics.
Dr Ginni Mansberg — GP and women's health advocate.
Dr Stephanie Ward — Geriatrician helping you understand the ageing brain.
Kerry Milligan — Gogglebox star bringing humour and honesty.
About Jo Lamble: Clinical psychologist, author and a regular Clubber on the show, specialising in family dynamics, guilt and boundaries.
Put The Kettle On — Vera's free conversation guide: the five questions worth asking your ageing mum or dad, at putthekettleon.com.au
This episode was supported by Australian Unity, home health and care services — australianunity.com.au/clubsandwich.
With thanks to NSW Trustee and Guardian — search NSW Trustee and Guardian, or call 1300 10 20 30.
Vera is your candid companion as you care for an ageing parent. Have a look at https://vera.guide.
Credits:
Sarah Macdonald – Host + Executive Producer
Melissa Reader – Commissioning Editor, Executive Producer + Clubber
Justin McArthur – Executive Producer + Editor, for P. Zinner Podcasts (https://pzinner.com.au)
Thanks and kudos to Sean Wayland for our theme music Club Sandwich — hear more at https://seanwayland.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Transcript
Club Sandwich is recorded on Gadigal land, home of the EORA nation. We pay our respects to elders past and present. Always was, always will be.
Suddenly you've got older parent, you've got your adult children, then you've got grandchildren and you're still holding all of that together.
It's a four layer sandwich.
It's a four layer club sandwich that's really hard to get your mouth around.
Club Sandwich is brought to you by Australian Unity Home Health and Care, helping Australian families keep their parents well, independent and at home for longer. Visit australianunity.com auclubsandwich Club Sandwich is brought to you by New South Wales Trustee and Guardian. Helping families across New South Wales make a will place, plan ahead and protect the people they love. Search New South Wales Trustee and Guardian or call 1300-10-2030. Welcome to Club Sandwich. Now this is the podcast for you. If it only seemed like yesterday that you were a kid yourself in your head, you may still be about 19, 25. I'm about 27. My name is Sarah McDonald. This is an episode for the sandwich generation who have kids and in particular older kids, adult kids, kidults. Jo Lamball, clinical psychologist and writer, is in the club this week or the club house because she plays golf. And that's one of the reasons we're doing this episode this week. You got approached in the clubhouse? Yes.
This lovely lady came up to me yesterday and said, loving the podcast, which was great. Didn't even know people knew about it there. But anyway, loving the podcast, but when are you going to do an episode on the other layer of the sandwich? You know, the adult children who are either, you know, you're still worrying about. Cause we worry about them forever or they're living at home and that is putting pressure on us as well. So I said we listen, we'll do
it your wish, our command.
Absolutely.
I got a text from a clubber yesterday. Listen to this. Can you do an episode on mothering stretching beyond the normal lifespan? I left home at 18, never went back. But now the mental load of being the anchor who notices the toilet paper is low and pays the bills. They don't know what it takes to run a household, even if they help. It's like having shit housemates in your early 20s, but they should be pissing off other people and not me.
Perfectly said. How many people are gonna relate to that?
Yeah, exactly. So there's a couple of different layers of those that come back and those that are still there and the younger ones will do later. But we are a generation who are caring for our kids for longer because of the pressures on them from the economy, they're staying at home for longer than usually we did. We were kind of on the milk crates with the futon at a much younger age.
Yeah, that's right. And I think what that brings is, I mean, let's face it, as soon as a child finishes school, they think they're adults. They say, hey, you can't tell me what to do, you can't tell me when to get up, when to come home, what to eat, you know what to do. But they're not so adultish that they can cook for themselves or the family or do their washing or package or anything like that. So it does become harder at that point and then that just continues. So when they're now into their early 20s or mid 20s or late 20s or 30s and they're still living at home, it just does become more and more difficult because it's harder to parent them.
And do you think we feel like we need to still parent them because they're living at home?
Well, we haven't had that gap. We haven't had that time when they were out and they were able to just be independent and fend from themselves. So it's not like this time comes when we say, right, I've finished, I'm not parenting anymore. So we don't really notice it. We do notice the frustration often of what am I still picking up after you? Why is this washing? Why is this left around? But we don't notice that. Hold on. We are still part of this equation. We are still doing things for them. We're giving them often unsolicited advice where, you know, we are still parenting them. We haven't stepped back yet.
I mean, I left home, I was 21, 22 and I travelled. And I think a lot of kids go off to uni now, if they can afford it, to go to another state, to kind of force this earlier. But then even when they come back and they're still young, they just go back into the old patterns too. And you go back into parenting.
Oh, we've talked about this. Remember in an earlier episode when we said, even when, you know, we're our age and you can go to your parents house and sit down and wait for that cup of tea to come. So it never changes. Yes. If you're around your parents, you tend to revert back to being a bit more childlike. But yeah, definitely that period of time when there are adult children at home. I mean, it can be fabulous. I mean, it can be fabulous. You know, you can enjoy hanging out with them. You know, you share some, you know, similarities in music, in things you watch, in conversation.
It's more interesting as they get older, don't they do.
And that starts in teenagehood. They do get more interesting. Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I love babies, but they get more interesting, which is good news.
It'd be worse. It was the other way around, wasn't it? The most interesting thing was the first
couple of years done now.
No wonder people keep it up.
But we're close generations, aren't we? You mentioned the music and watching telly. I think we're quite bound together in a way that other generations weren't.
Well, I don't know about your kids, but my kids love music from the 80s and 90s. Yes. They just love it. They don't love. Yeah, they don't love today's music. I don't remember really loving my parents. Mitchie Miller. Sorry, Mum, but I don't think I.
My mind rocked.
But, yeah. Oh, there were a couple. Yeah. But that was still later, you know, their tastes. In the 30s or 40s, not so much. But, you know, our kids. So we are, you know, linked in that way. We do share that. And you listen to their playlists, you think, oh, that could be the same as mine. So that's really nice.
So there's lovely things about it.
There are lovely things, yeah. But it is still this, as I said, we can't blame the kids. I think that's the problem. We can't blame the kids for being lazy and not independent and depending on us if we're the ones who are still trying to parent them.
So what have we done wrong? Do you think we've cushioned them too much? Is that what you're saying? We've helicoptered them too much and now we don't know how to let go.
Yeah. I don't think it's necessary. Helicoptering, as in not letting them out and, you know, tracking them everywhere, which I'm not a fan of. I'm not talking about that helicoptering. I'm talking about the. When they're still at home and you are still saying, you know, what do you want for dinner? Or dinner's ready, or, yeah, I'm doing that. Yeah. Or, you know, the washings and the basket. So you're just doing it all, you know, it's that sort of thing that we're still doing, no matter what age. It's more that. It's not so much suffocating them. It's just still looking after them. They're not being as independent as when they first move out. I remember when my son talked about his first flatmate, he went, when? Wow, he's such a nag, Mum, I can't leave the house without him saying, oi, take the recycling with you as you go. That's good. Yeah.
More than you were.
Yeah, absolutely. More than I would. He really noticed that. And I went, oh, my bad. Yeah.
And you don't want to be a nag. And that's why I think, for me, I sometimes overdo things so I don't have to nag. But then you kind of going, no, you've got to learn to do your washing and things like that. And I wonder, though, if that also means that because they're there, we do it because they're there. Right. And if they're not there, you don't know. Like, I always wake up when my kids come home late at night and I'm sort of alert and I don't sleep well till I know they're there. Now, if they'd moved out and they were elsewhere, I'd have no idea what they were doing.
And that is the best way to deal with any anxiety we have about the choices they're making or their lifestyle is to say, well, if they weren't here, I wouldn't know. So you gotta try and tell you something. Earplugs really help. Lights off really help. I never light for a while. I used to leave the outside light on, so then I knew when it was off that was home. But then that would be too stressful because I'd still feel the light on and then look at my watch. So now it's better? Well, it was better. My kids are there now, but yeah, yeah, okay.
So you don't think it's their issue? I suppose that they go into the pattern like we do when we go and see our parents, of thinking, well, Mum or dad are there, they'll do the cooking and they'll do the dishwasher and they'll do that, so of course I'm going to stay. Do you think it sort of stymies their adulthood and holds them back from growing up and becoming independent?
Well, I think our job is to make sure they are able to be independent. So we do need to teach them how to cook, how to wash, how to clean, how to budget, how to save money, how to shop. We do need to teach them all that so that they are able. And that's the incentive when you think, oh, it's just easier if I do it myself, to remind yourself. Yeah, but if we do that, they're not gonna know how to do it. So I think it's more important that they know how to do those things. And that is more important than making sure. Having just a strict rule on right come a certain age. I am not cooking for you, I'm not washing for you, I'm not doing anything like that because as I said, it can be lovely, them hanging around. So it's more about us teaching them the skills. But the second part to that is we have to step back a bit. We have to step back. We need to let them make their decisions. When we often think that's crazy, that's crazy. Why are you deciding that we have to let them make those decisions. We have to let them come to us for advice rather than just what I've always been guilty in. Just a little slipping a little word, just a little word of wisdom for you. Just wait for them to come to you. Then, of course, if they ask advice, then you give it. But I think it's these other ways that we. I'm just trying to give us some responsibility for it. Not to blame. I'm not wanting anyone to feel guilty about it because I'm certainly, you know,
you don't like guilt.
Not at all. We don't do guilt. But it's, it's more positive in that you can say it's, we don't have to blame them, we can do something about it. We can step back a bit, we can say, hey, let me show you how to, you know, make your favourite meals. So you know how to do them. All of those things really help them.
I feel like texting my son and saying, have you put the washing out? My thumb is just twitching to do that now. It really.
That's a really good thing. Hey, you know, can you just reminding them. And that's the other thing, reminding them to do some things. And then also if, you know, I think one of the things I used to do from a very. When they were very young is not go around and pick up their washing. So when they said, where's my sports uniform? Where's my favorite outfit that I want? I don't know, where is it? And so then they learned when they were younger to put it in, you know, in the washing basket. And then when they're older, they learnt they need to wash it if they need. If they want to wear it again. So, you know, you can. These little things, you can do rather than just waiting till there's that blow up every three months. When you say, guys, you have got to learn to do some of these things for yourself. I can't carry all of this because, as we've talked about before that just three monthly blow up, everybody nods and says, yep, gotcha. Things are gonna get better, don't you worry, Mum.
And you go back into your habits.
Yeah, that's right.
See, I just kept losing socks religiously in the washing. So my daughter's totally taken over her own washing. Cause I'm hopeless at it. So being incompetent yourself, very handy.
Very handy. And also, if you've got kids who love food and love cooking, that's great. My daughter loves cooking. So, you know, it was really good when she'd say, hey, can I cook tonight? Okay, what about.
I know some families that go, okay, your adult kids are living at home. You have to cook two nights a week or.
Yeah, yeah, that often works really well.
They'll choose those nights to go out, but.
Yeah, that's right. But if you. And my son hates to cook.
Yeah.
And if he hates it and I don't particularly want to eat what he can cook, then I think that's different. As long as he knows how to cook for himself. So that's the sort of thing when you go out or you go away when they're adults, you don't prepare a meal for them or stock the freezer. That's when they start learning at home how to be more independent. So there's all these more subtle ways you can do it.
Yeah.
Go away a lot.
Go away a lot.
Don't do the washing.
Yes. And leave the responsibility for the pet, you know, for the house, to the children. That's a great way to, you know, foster independence.
What do you say to people who just cannot stand their kid being in bed longer? Or they'll leave the washing out and they'll pick it up four days later. Like my text earlier on was saying. That was. The texts went on. It kept going. It seems like the washing will just stay there for a week and get wet again. It's like, well.
Well, as long as it's not your washing.
No, just pick your own off.
Yeah.
Yes, yeah.
Oh, absolutely. Look after your own thing. I think I'm a big fan of the closed door of the. If you can't stand them being in bed, then get out of the house. You know, that's not gonna help them. If you're saying, come on, get up, get up, get up, don't forget your washing, do all that. As long as they know how to do those things and they're gonna have the consequence if they're in bed too long and they miss, you know, catch up with friends or, you know, a work commitment, then they're going to have those consequences.
What do you think about paying board and things like that? If they can afford that? Does that help with competency?
Oh, look, I'm. I'm not a. I don't know. I don't like the board. I would rather that they learnt how to manage money. So if they were paying board, I'd rather that board was placed in a savings account that I might hold and then give it back to them later when they. But don't tell them. Yeah, but. But far more importantly, living within their means. So I think it's really. I'm a big fan of them getting a job as soon as they're old enough. Get a job, learn to save, learn to spend. Whereas with board, I think bored comes in handy. If you really want them to move out, then you can start saying, you know, you can contribute. But a big mistake, I think, is when the children are getting older and older and they are becoming more and more expensive and then you watch them just. They're spending money on fast fashion or, you know, going out so much. Uber eats, you know, Uber's everywhere. When we used to catch the train, you know, all of these things, then you can think, hold on, there's something wrong with this picture. I'm still. I'm still working or I'm still financing everything at home and you don't seem to be saving anything or contributing. That's when I think you can switch and say, because you think, I'm not helping you, I'm not helping you if I let this go on. Because when you are independent, you're not gonna know what's hit you. You're not gonna know when you've gotta pay electricity bills and, you know, your whole life if this is what you're doing now. So I think if we can think about it, it's all for their benefit, then it gives us the incentive to be a bit stronger.
Jo's whole case this week is about starting early, teaching your kids to cook, budget and look after themselves before life forces the issue. It's the same principle behind Australian Unity's home health and care. Getting the right support around your mum or dad early before a crisis makes the decision for you. A little help now means more independence for longer, for everyone in the house. Visit australianunity.com auclubsandwich. Jo's hack this week is simple. Don't let things pile up for months and then blow up. Have the hard conversation now, not after. Resentment can set in. It's the same instinct behind sorting a will, a power of attorney, an enduring guardian. While your mum or dad can still tell you what they want. Don't be the family working it out at midnight under pressure with no plan in place. Search New South Wales Trustee and Guardian or call 1300 10, 20, 30. I do know parents who have moved out of home. Like just said, we're selling the house, we're going to go and move into a flat to get rid of you.
Oh, there's lots of downsizes for that reason.
It's the only way they could get rid of the kids.
That's right. That's right.
That's hard on. I mean, but I suppose then you feel. I mean, I do feel for this generation, like, it is super hard. Rents are ridiculously hard. I can understand them wanting to stay at home and I don't want mine to move out. I'll be devastated, probably, when they do. And if I get that empty nest. But then I'd also like to live flat and not have to look after, you know, extra room. So there's that kind of pull, isn't there?
Yeah, I think once you have the empty nest, it's pretty good.
So do you walk around nude, do anything nude?
Absolutely.
Some people grieve it, though.
Oh, absolutely. And that's why, you know, a whole lot of things we can talk about empty nest, how to prepare for that and how to make that easier. But once you. Yeah, that's a whole nother episode. Yep. But once you have it and you've enjoyed it, then when they come back, it can be, you know, even for a week's fine, but a bit longer, it can be such an adjustment, again, needed. Especially if, when they come back, it's a basket lock, you know, washing and food orders and the shopping lists grow. That's when you think, oh, this is much harder.
Well, let's talk about that. Because golf club lady was like, you know, when they come back and this is happening a lot because of the same sort of pressures of them not being able to move out. They'll move out for a while, rent's high, their lease will get cancelled, a developer will buy the block of flats they're in, something like that will happen. Or they're trying to, God forbid, save up to buy a place of their own so they Boomerang back. And you should always say yes if you can.
Well, I think that's what we do. Yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah, we're lovely. So we do say yes. And then there's even higher costs that I've seen many clients who, their adult children have gone out, they've, you know, partnered up and they've had some kids and then the relationship's broken down and so they've moved back home with the kids. Now that one is. That can be really tough because. And remember, we're talking about when we're still working ourselves, when we've often got an older parent that we're looking after. So then suddenly you've got older parent, you've got your adult children, then you've got grandchildren and you're still holding all of that together.
It's a four layer sandwich.
It's a four layer club sandwich. That's really hard to get your mouth around, you know, and so that is quite common. And you know, the thing that seems to be so stressful for the people I've seen with this one is about the grandparenting because they, I mean, they adore having the grandkids around and they love, they, you know, absolutely embrace this opportunity to get closer to their grandkids and to have this lovely relationship. So there's the positive. But they're not their parents, so they can't say, get off that iPad, what are you doing? Go outside. They can't do that because they're the parent. They can't say you shouldn't be eating that. They can't say you go to bed because they're not the parent. But they're often expected to be home in time for the child to come home from school because the parents are working. So, you know, so they're carrying the responsibility of I must. I can think of lots of people coming to my head where they have to be there to get them off to school, to get them on the bus or to drive them somewhere and be there to pick them up or come home, be home by the time they get home. But they don't have much. They've been told what they're allowed to do when they get home, they've been told what they're allowed to eat, you know, the homework. So they're, they're being. Does that make sense? So they're only parenting.
I was thinking of, you know, it's not all care, no responsibility, because they've got the care and the responsibility, but they don't have the sort of control
that's the power or the authority?
Yeah, the authority. Yeah, that's right. And parenting has changed.
Absolutely. So I've had so many grandparents say they're living in my house, but I can't give them what I, you know, the food I want to give. No, no, no, you've got to let the baby, the tiny baby just, you know, baby led weaning, you know, so the child is just given carrots and things and they have to feed. And the grandparents saying, can't I just puree up some pumpkin? No, no, no, just leave it, leave it. That's what the child's got to do. So you're sort of being told how to parent, which is often in a different way than you did. So that can be stressful. And the other thing, I know it's
in the language too.
Oh, exactly, yes. You can't say no, you can't, you know. But the other thing, as I said, what I hear is that these grandparents again can't say yes to an invitation to go away because you've got to check with, you know, do the grandkids need something, you know, cause it might not fit in with the parents schedule that they might say no. No, you can't go away because I've got a big, I'm away for a conference or I've got to, I've got to work late those nights. So you can't go out that night. So see, I mean it's a lot.
It's another layer of the sandwich that means you're getting squished even more.
Yes.
I mean surely you can help the layers talk to each other. There is no greater joy for a great grandparent than a great grandchild. But I suppose if the, if your parent is elderly, you can't really leave your grandchild with them.
No, no, I think the great grandparent to great grandchild. Yeah, that is, I mean, how lucky, how lucky. Yeah. So that's wonderful. And we should be promoting that. We should be promoting those relationships. That's wonderful. But we're talking about our age and older, you know, who are able, able bodied and can very easily look after grandchildren and love to do so, but
they've still got a parent they're looking after and adult children. They're looking after and adult children. So how do they lighten that load by. That's so much.
It is so much.
Because then you also feel you can't ask your adult children for help with your parent because they're so busy with their kids.
That's right.
When you're not looking after their kids.
Yeah, that's right. That's right. I know. See, so that's what I mean. This is an issue that I think we need to just be aware of and tell people they're not alone if they're suffering from this, because they keep telling themselves, but I'm so lucky and I love having it. And. Which is true, but you're also allowed to have a bit of a whinge. You're also allowed to say, what about me? You know, I do want to get that break. Or I do want to say yes to that invitation and not have to check with all the layers if that suits. Because I think, particularly women, that's what we do too easily is.
So have the family calendar and say, I'm away at this time and I'm doing it.
That's perfect.
Yeah.
And as much notice as you can give. That's good. But I am going on that trip, or I am going away that weekend, or I have got a regular mahjong night. A lot of people seem to be taking out mah Jongg and pickleball.
Oh, pickleball. Such a cult. That's a cult.
Yeah, that's a cult.
A total cult. I haven't joined that cult.
I haven't either.
I'm not sure I'll be able to understand mah Jongg, but my mum's got a beautiful.
It's pretty, though.
Mahjong. They're beautiful. Oh, they're amazing. Yeah.
Yeah. So you want to. I do want to, yeah. Yeah. Because it's beautiful. So you got to put that in the diary. You gotta. You gotta announce that's what I'm doing. And I think that's really important. And it is important for us to do that with our adult children who are parents themselves, because we're also modeling that we have to take, you know, we have to put ourselves up on the, you know, equal footing as everyone else, because otherwise they're just learning. Wow. Okay. I've got to still sacrifice when I'm a grandparent. I've still got to just always be last in line, so.
And you want adulthood to look good, don't you? That's right. I mean, that's what I remember thinking with my kids when they were little. I was like, I'm not modelling parenting and adulthood to be a fun place because I'm running around like a chook half the time.
Yeah. I've got a slogan. We've got to advertise adults. We really do. And I see a lot of. I Think I've said this in different forums that I see a lot of young adults, and by young, I mean in their 30s, who are choosing not to have children. Now, that's absolutely fine to choose not to have children for lots and lots of reasons. But if they're choosing not to have children because they've watched you run ragged and said, I don't want to be like that, that is just not. I'm not. I'm too selfish to just sacrifice my whole life for it, then that's sad. We're done something. We've done them a disservice if we don't say no. I'm going off to work. I love my job. I love my job. It's great. You'll have a good time at, you know, school, daycare, whatever you're doing as well. But I love my job and I'm going out with a girlfriend tonight. We're gonna have a great laugh. Yeah, it's gonna be great. I'll tell you all about tomorrow.
You've gotta model your fun that you're doing. I mean, my kids do see the fun that I have and the power of my friendships. Yes, but that is so true. If you're not having fun, then you. I mean, I think a lot of them are not having kids because they're worried about climate change.
All good reasons.
Money. All good reasons.
Yeah, I'm just talking about this one. I'm only talking about if they're not having. That's the sad one. When I've heard young people say to me, I've just watched what, you know, mum went through and I couldn't do it. She just didn't look like she ever enjoyed anything. Everything was a burden. She just looked strung out the whole time. That's what I'm talking about. Or lots of other reasons not to have children, of course.
So that's why you have to set those. We're gonna use that boundary word again, but.
No, we're not.
We're not gonna use boundary. That's why you have to go and have fun. You have to sometimes not be everywhere at once. For every one, you have to leave their washing to get wet on the line and not take it on and
not have their, you know, favourite outfit ready. But the solution, okay, if we can just do a cure all here.
Let's do it.
Yeah, let's do it.
Let's press the magic button. Yes, I know. It's gonna be so easy.
It's gonna be so easy. This one is, relatively speaking, this solution is Easier. And that is. Everybody has to make the transition into being good flatmates. That's what it's all about.
Oh, so think of them as flatmates.
Absolutely, yes. That's what they are.
We don't want he died with the falafel in his hand in my house. Remember that Generation X John Birmingham novel?
No, no, no, no, not that one.
It's not gonna be that. But I mean, that was a series, and that was a terrible one to start with, but that was a series of stories about shit flatmates that we grew up with.
That's why I put the good flatmates in there. Right. So we all know what a good flatmate looks like. The good flatmate gives you space. You give them space. They look after their own washing, they look after their own food, but hopefully get on well together. So you wanna hang out and you often have meals together, but you take turns. They, you know, have a role in cleaning the bathroom, in, you know, putting away all their. All their things. They let you know if they're going to be away for the weekend. So you don't worry, you know, they let you know. They ask, is it okay if I have a few friends over? That's what a good flat mat does. So we can do that. We can do that with our adult children. We can have a house meeting and say, hey, this is what we're going to do. It's going to be great.
Do we need a roster on the fridge or to label our food we?
Depends.
I would.
Yeah.
If that's your thing, I would say that's a bad flatmate.
Yeah, I wouldn't enjoy that flatmate. So. No, you don't.
Depends on who you are. Some people love that.
Yeah, but you can. Yeah, if that suits you. But again, in a family flatmate, good flatmate situation, you shouldn't need to have your own food, but you shouldn't be the only one who's, as you said from the texter, only one who knows if there's enough toilet paper in the house. You should just. If you're responsible for doing the shopping, then there should be a shopping list that people have the responsibility to adding things to. You know, that's what a good flatmate does. And what happens when a flatmate stuffs up, which they do, we all do, you just address it assertively. You know, you just say, hey, remember it was your turn to clean the bathroom this week. I actually did it because I was having a friend over, but can you take my turn next week? You just say it. You call it out. It's not about big fight. It's not storing it all up for months and then exploding or moving out or if they, you know. Do you mind putting my hair dry back? Cause I don't want to run around when I need to use it. If you're going to use it, can you put it back when you finish? You know, we just address things so much more easily with a good flatmate than we do with our own kids, so.
True. It's just a mind shift. That's all it is.
So stop.
When your kids are sort of maybe university level and they're still at home and they're an adult, they've finished school or, or they've moved back in with you, you kind of. And do you have that conversation with them? Like, we need to treat each other like flatmates. That's your training ground to have flatmates.
That's right. That's why it's a house meeting. This is what we're going to do.
I'm not playing Minecraft with you, but yeah, that's right.
Unless you want to. Unless you want to. But yeah, so that's. You have. You're announcing it, not doing it subtly. This is very deliberate. Very deliberate. You're having that conversation and you're getting their input. What do you think a good flatmate, what would you like me to do? Because they might like, they might say, well, I don't want you to comment on what I'm wearing, I don't want you to comment on what time I'm coming home or whether I should be seeing that friend. Whether you like them or not, you don't comment on a flatmate's appearance. You don't comment on your flatmate's choice of friends. You know, you might choose not to hang out with them, but you know that friend, but you don't comment. So they might be very vocal on that sort of thing. And you can say, okay, fair enough. Yeah, that's good. I'll be a good flatmate too. Yeah.
I'm thinking of so many issues in this we could do a whole other podcast about. But they need to think it's their home, so they need to be able to have partners around and, you know, have sex and all that sort of stuff too. And I suppose in some ways seeing them as a flatmate, it's distancing them in a way that is a good way.
In a really good way.
And it's de. Involving yourself in their emotional life as well. We've got to kind of step back yeah.
And that is hard. I find that one the hardest. I really do. Because you ask any parent of any age, child, whether they're, you know, my mum, you know, you always worry about your kids, no matter how old they get. So it's very hard when you see if they are struggling with something to not step in and say, come on, talk to me, talk to me, what's going on? But sometimes we do with a flatmate, we might say, you okay, you want to talk? You know, I'm here if you want to talk. You might say something like that. But that's where we'd probably leave it. And that's a good. Just if you look through that lens, how would I address this particular situation with a good flatmate, then that's the way you can do it with your own kiddult.
So interesting. Does that help if they've got their kids living with you as well, that they've boomeranged back. You're looking after the kid as well. The kids. Your flatmate. Even though you're the grand.
No, your kids. The grandchild's not your flatmate, but your child. Adult child is your flatmate. But if your flatmate. There's plenty of people who live with a flatmate who've got children. Yeah. So that's fine. But. So again, you might say, hey, you're not going to comment on how they're parenting because that's not your place at all, especially a flatmate.
Grit your teeth, bite your tongue and don't.
But you can say, hey, that. That's my favourite vase. Can you. You know, I'm gonna move it. Cause I don't want your child to break it. Or do you mind just. This is what is affecting me. So you ask them to address it. You can do that with a flatmate. You would. But you wouldn't be hovering around and telling them how to parent and you wouldn't discipline them.
This is so good, Jo. I'm gonna try this.
Yes, good, good. Oh, yes, done it. Lots of clients and it does really help. And you know what? The kids love it too.
Yes.
And this is, you know, a lot of things that we have to do for ourselves. Others don't like it, but this is a win for everybody.
It is.
That's why I'm saying it's quite an easy solution once you have that.
People coming to see you as a psychologist is because they're living with their kid alts.
That's right. And they're saying, I can't stand it. The sort of thing you're talking about, I can't stand they're sleeping in. I can't stand that, you know, how they're choosing to live their life and how they're not contributing and how I'm doing everything and say, well, is that how you. You'd be with a flatmate? How would you deal with it?
So stop parenting and start being a flatmate. Yes. That's when kidults become flatmates. Oh, this is really good. I want to. I'm gonna really kind of focus in on this. We're gonna have the flatmate meeting.
Excellent. Excellent.
I love it. Brilliant. Okay, well, what if that's what I'm gonna do for myself this week? Right. I'm gonna do that because I love having my kids at home, But I think this is a real good way to help them set them up for agency and to be good flatmates when they can afford to move out. Yeah.
And good partners.
Yes, that's right. True. What are you gonna do for yourself this week or what have you done?
Well, this is what I did today. I got off a call from my daughter who lives overseas, and my grandson, beautiful little facetime. We had been on for a while, but I got off the call because I wanted to go for a run, and I thought, if I don't go now, I'm not gonna fit it in, and I know I'll feel better if I go for a run. So I just said. And I didn't. I didn't lie. I didn't say, I've got to go. I've got to go out or whatever. I said, oh, I've got to go. I want to go for a run.
Because usually we kind of let them.
Yeah, yes. And then they say, look, I'm sorry. I've got to go. And you go, oh, okay. But no, that was for me. I just said. I announced it and I said, no, no, I've got to go because I want to do this.
Yeah, lovely. And I suppose, look, we haven't really talked about the ageing parents at all much this episode, but if you can encourage your adult kids to keep that relationship with their grandparents and don't protect them.
Don't protect them from the fact that the aging grandparent might be, you know, it might be confronting for them to see that and to spend time with them, but it's good for them. It's good for them to see that. It's good to visit their grandmother or grandfather, you know, in a nursing home or.
I remember visiting my grandmother and being so confronted in my 20s. It just freaked me out. I think I ran a mum. But they have to. We need to see that phase of life. You can't lock those things away.
That's right.
Yeah. Okay. We've added on another thing at the end, but, hey, we can do that. Thanks, Jo.
Thanks, Sarah.
So, clubbers, don't forget to send this to somebody who maybe does have a shit flatmate that is their own child. You can share the love of the podcast with them. You can also give us a rating, check us out on YouTube or Facebook or Instagram. And you can also suggest episodes and issues you'd like us to help you with. Because, yes, this one was two people we met and chatted to who said, why don't you do this? You can email us on hellolubsandwich.community and remember, you are doing a great job. We know that there is a lot going on, but you have got them and we have got you. Today's episode was supported by Australian Unity Home Health and Care, Proactive local care that helps your parents stay independent and living well at home. Visit australianunity.com auclubsandwich. Today's episode was supported by New South Wales Trustee and Guardian, Power of a church attorney and enduring guardianship sorted properly so the people you love aren't left guessing. Search New South Wales Trustee and Guardian or call 1300-10-2030.
You are holding everyone together. When did someone last check in on you? Well, we are not just for your ageing mum or dad, we're checking in on you. We know your kids caring for someone you love and you're juggling work and your own family and everything else life is throwing at you. And it's one of the hardest things a person can manage. We see you. And if you're lying awake at night wondering whether you're getting it right, please hear this. You're turning up, you're worrying, you're asking the questions. You're doing an awesome job. Not a perfect one. Nobody does a perfect one. You're doing an awesome one. And that guilt is perfect proof that you're not failing. It's the proof that you care. So be as kind to yourself as you are to them. And when you need a hand for them or for you, Vera is here. Visit Vera Guide. It's free, safe and secure, built here in Australia with families and experts.