Ageing is a gift and a radical act (whiskers aside) with Kerry Milligan
Ageing in an ageist society can feel confronting, especially when you are caring for older parents while navigating your own changing body, identity and future.
In this episode of Club Sandwich, Sarah Macdonald and Clubber Kerry Milligan (Gogglebox) explore how to age in an ageist culture, why invisibility can feel painful but also freeing, how body image and confidence shift over time, and how lived experience can become a source of strength. They also talk about age discrimination, mortality, proactive health, and the freedom that can come with getting older.
Kerry brings humour, honesty and hard-won perspective to a conversation that will resonate with women in midlife, carers, and anyone trying to age well without buying into fear, shame or impossible beauty standards. It is candid, warm and deeply relatable, with plenty of laughs, including Kerry’s very real “whisker watch” moment.
Ageing parents? You’ve got them. We’ve got you.
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This episode of Club Sandwich is sponsored by Altina Drinks.
If you’ve been quietly reassessing your relationship with alcohol — not quitting, not announcing anything — just noticing… you’re not alone.
So many of us in midlife are realising it’s not even the alcohol we love — it’s the ritual. The glass at the end of a long caregiving day. Something that feels grown-up. A marker between chaos and rest.
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Topics include ageism, ageing women, ageing naturally, menopause, body image, visibility and invisibility, confidence in midlife, caring for ageing parents, mortality, proactive ageing and ageing well.
Club Sandwich is brought to you by Vera, helping families caring for ageing parents navigate this stage of life so you do not have to do it alone.
Sarah Macdonald is Host and Executive Producer.
Melissa Reader is Commissioning Editor, Executive Producer and Clubber.
Rachel Fountain is Executive Producer.
Audio and video edits by Fountain Media Group.
Theme music by Sean Wayland.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Transcript
Club Sandwich is recorded on Gadigal Land, home of the EORA Nation. We pay our respects to elders past and present.
Always was, always will be. Welcome to Club Sandwich. My name is Sarah McDonald. Now this is the podcast for you. If you are loving and caring for an ageing parent while also trying to love and care for yourself. And I think here's a secret to getting older, you do learn to love yourself a little bit more. And I say it's a secret because I think there's almost a toxic attitude to ageing in our society now. So I want to ask this episode, how do we care for the aged in an ageist society? Joining me in the club this week is Kerry Milligan. You may know her from gogglebox. She's been in multiple layers of care for her mum, Emmy, for her daughter Isabel. She is a grandmother. She is retired from full time work, but not retired from life. Doing lots of wonderful, fabulous things including dancing and singing. Hello, Kerry. You don't have to sing today, but you can if you want.
I can if you want me to.
Yeah. And dance.
Yes. I'm good at that.
Do you reckon that there is a kind of toxic attitude to ageing in our society? Like, do you feel the sense that people look at you differently as you are in your 70s?
I think there is a balance between being invisible and being feared. I think there's, you know, like with our parents generation or our mother's generation, they became invisible. You know, they wore beige, they had their hair permed, you know, all that kind of thing. And they were just old. Like they probably got to 50 and they were old. Whereas we, we don't do that. We're at the, I mean, look, I'm wearing colour.
Like, I'm loving the purple and the.
It's almost like a look at me, look at me, isn't it?
You refuse to be invisible.
I do refuse to be invis. I'm sure I am, but I don't want to be and I don't assume that I am. And I think that whole fear, I would say, rather than hatred, I would say fear. I think there's a fear, particularly of older women because, I mean, I'm gonna ramble here, so stop me, Sarah, and interrupt if you want to, but you know, when we go through menopause and we just don't give a fuck anymore, we actually, actually we find our voice, which is quite a surprise to us that we actually have a voice. We stop being submissive, we stop being compliant. We just think, I'm gonna Do what I wanna do. And oh, it's the adage, put the mask on yourself first when you're in the plane. Put the mask on yourself first and then you can put it on your kids because you can't look after all these people if you're cactus.
Yes, well that's so true. But is that so that's a freedom, right. And that's a power, I suppose, not giving a rat's what other people think. And so is what you think. People are afraid of that power that a middle aged woman has of like, I don't care what you think. As I get older, I get older
because we refuse to comply. I think my generation of women, the baby boomer generation, we are not. Well, I don't know any of my friends who are going for the Mar A Lago face, you know, I don't know any friends of mine who have had plastic surgery of any kind. We're just saying we're too busy to think about spending all those hours in front of the mirror. I don't, you know, I don't spend a lot of time in front of the mirror.
It's a full time job and that's a great fit.
It's a full time job and it costs a lot of money.
Yeah, but see, the Mar A Lago face is really interesting one, isn't it? And that's an extreme form of plastic surgery and it's all about the kind of power within that Trumpian world. But I think you might be the last generation that ages naturally. And I mean I, none of my friends have had plastic surgery either and Botox or anything. But a lot of people in my generation have, in the generation below me, they're doing it when they're in their 20s so they, they don't get wrinkles. Right? Yeah. And look, yes, whatever you want to do, your body, your face, I understand, but I think what's interesting and the reason I used hatred and when I say hatred, I think it's a self hatred sometimes. Right. So if you saw the reaction recently to Claire Danes is in this show called the Beast in Me and people really responding because she looks like a middle aged woman in it.
How old is she?
She's 46. She's playing a middle aged woman who. Yeah, called Aggie, who's a writer. But her face moves and it is a real face.
Right.
And you don't see it much anymore on film, so it becomes rare. And so then there's this, as you said, that reaction to it because it's real People are not used to seeing it in the public eye. And the same thing happened with Rachel Ward, who did a little, you know, video about her fabulous farm and how much she's loving that. And the reaction to it was so people were like, what is wrong with her? What's going on with her? And so we're now shocked when we see natural aging.
Yeah. And I mean, I've experienced it recently with. I experienced it twice in my life. One hot day I was with my grandchildren at the park, sleeveless dress, and I had my arms on the bench and a little toddler ran up and said, mummy, Mummy, look at that woman's arms.
Cause she had the doopadas, as Kath and Kim called them, tuck shop arms.
I just went, well, sorry, you know, they're real.
That's what happens.
And then I was at a play centre over the weekend and these little toddlers would come up to me and they would just stare at me, like literally transfixed, staring at me. And I said to my daughter, why do children do this to me? And she said, it's your hair, mum. Nobody's got curly hair anymore. Everybody straightens their hair. Well, I'm not prepared to spend time and money doing that. I just wash my hair and that's it. So, you know, this kind of hair is considered to be unusual. And I.
In certain sections, I mean, it's not
ubiquitous, but I won't conform.
Yes. Okay. Because again, you're coming back to the I don't care kind of factor. But isn't that interesting that it is now sort of seen as unusual and it's almost a radical act to actually be your age. Like, it's. Is this the greatest radical act you can do?
I think. I think in this new age of feminism, and I'll put it that way, this is the most revolutionary thing that we can do, is to age naturally
if we've got the guts for it. Because there is. I mean, we have to work within society. And if you're still working and you look older, you know, there is discrimination. I can understand why people feel they can't.
I can, I do. But when I was working and I was working as a teacher in adolescent psychiatry and I would be in family meetings with other clinicians and nurses and the parents and myself as the teacher and all the team were young. They were all young professionals and I was the oldest person in the team. And they would talk all this medico. Legal language that I could see the parents had no understanding of what was being said to them. And So I said I would interrupt and I'd say, I think what Dr. So and so is saying to you is your child needs to have the orange pill in the morning and the white pill in the evening. And they went, ah. And they listened to me because I was older and they knew that I had all this experience.
Yeah. And you can translate.
Yeah.
Well, that helps a lot between the generations. Yeah, yeah, that's. I. That. I think that, of course, that helps in work sometimes, but there's no point hiding the fact that it can often go against you. And I remember, you know, I used to always dread if I had to ask a younger, fabulous worker for help with the technology. I was like, I'm living up to that stereotype. But I do think there is a power in just embracing your age and sort of rejecting that whole attitude of you can't age. And particularly now, the sort of tech bros are just so terrified of their own mortality that they're trying to live forever and putting millions and billions of dollars into their kind of cryogenic chambers and their oxygen tents and all this sort of stuff.
It's weird.
It is weird, isn't it? It's totally weird. But that's what I mean when I say it's toxic. There's almost a hatred of it. And you're right, though, it does come back to fear. It's a visceral fear, because will I still be relevant? Do I still matter? And ultimately, ageing is leading to one direction, which is the D word.
You can say it, Sarah.
Yeah, the death word. But often people can't. They don't want to accept their own mortality. That's the greatest challenge of all, isn't it? Yeah. So what do you think in terms of the face and the power of the face and the stories that it tells and the body? Like, how do you feel about your body and your face as you do, just embrace it naturally?
Changing look. I was very fortunate that I was an art student. So, you know, I do life drawing classes, and the best models in a life drawing class are the ones that have got a bit of meat on them and a bit of substance for you to draw. Skinny models are hopeless because they're too angular. And what I used to do as a young woman was I used to cut out from magazines photographs of ageing bodies or beautiful paintings of ageing bodies that I admired, artists I admired. And I would put them all around my desk or put them on my mirror in the balcony. You know, I think the young ones call it affirmation or Some wanky word like that. But I would use that to actually when I would stand naked and I still do. When I would stand naked in front of the mirror and I would think, actually, yeah, I'm pretty good for my age. Yeah, I've got saddlebags and I've got a stomach roll and all the. And a bit of, you know, what do you call the cellulite stuff. But I'm 72, I'm supposed to be like that. I'm not supposed to look like I did when I was 32.
But that's so interesting. You did that when you were young. Like you were already aware of that, you were already thinking forward.
It was because of the hair.
But see, I had curly hair too. And yeah, it is, it's sort of not usual. And yeah, in my ear everyone would straighten their hair. Absolutely, yeah.
So I never felt like. I never felt like I was attractive. So I had to find images of people who looked like me, women who looked like me. Because as a young woman you'd open up a magazine, there was never anybody in the magazines that looked like, like me. So I had to seek out those images and actually have them with me or every day to make me think it's good to be different.
Actually that's so interesting. You were kind of thinking forward even at a young age to being older. So you were ready for it in a way. What surprised you about it I suppose then in terms of that.
About getting older.
Yeah, about being in your 70s.
I don't know if anything surprised me, I think. Oh actually sometimes when, when I see a profile of myself and I see the double chin. Because when you're looking at yourself front on, you don't see the double chin. Yeah, that's a bit of a surprise.
Yeah.
But I think, Sarah, my biggest fear are the whiskers.
Oh yeah.
I have to do whisker watch every day. Every day I've got a ten times magnifying mirror and the best tweezers in the business. And I do whisker watch every day.
It's like you see at women at traffic lights right in the sunlight going like this. Oh yeah. Always have a pair of tweezers in your car past the age of, I reckon about 45.
Because when I used to catch the tram to school as a schoolgirl and you'd sit next to the older ladies who were probably only in their 60s, you know, and they might have had the lipstick that was sort of. Because they didn't have their glasses on or the eyebrows that went up like that. And you'd sit there in the tram and you'd look at the whiskers. I never wanted to have whiskers. Right.
So you're okay with everything else but the whiskers? Everything else is good, but you're hyper vigilant on the whiskers. Right. See, I think the other power of aging is you mentioned that sort of not giving a rats anymore. I think the other thing is the embracing of imperfection. Yes, like that, kind of letting go of that, having to do everything well. And you're embracing the sort of reality of life, imperfection, impermanence.
And you have to accept your imperfection and actually see them as something unique to you. You know, I used to suck my thumb and I had buck teeth. So my parents took me to the orthodontist to have my teeth straightened. And when he told them how much it cost, they said we can't afford it. So I never had straight teeth. And I would think, okay, well that's one of my little imperfections that makes me different.
See, isn't it interesting in Hollywood now, I think it's very hard for them to find a person who doesn't have straight teeth, who haven't got the teeth or that.
Yeah, or the gleaming white.
Yeah, the gleaming white. Or the face that actually works. And so if they're kind of doing an old fashioned film, it looks a bit weird if they've got the sort of different face and the perfect teeth they have to put the fake teeth in. But that's where we're at. And so those stories that were in it. But there is a kind of strength in that, isn't it? That embracing and acceptance of it. And acceptance.
Yeah, it's very important.
It is, isn't it? I mean, and so when you come back to fear, do you think that that's the fear of older people is that they might tell those younger people, those younger women, hey, you know, the secrets to kind of acceptance and imperfection?
I think for younger women when they've got all those images thrown at them all day every day, it's really, really hard. It's really, it's a struggle. And you have to have a complete flip in the way you think about yourself and actually think, actually I'm different. And that makes me really special because I'm different because I don't look like every other woman walking down the street. But that's a really big change, isn't it? To re. What's the word? Re. Jig. Re. You know, twist it round, recalibrate Recalibrate it.
Yeah. Self image. I think a lot of young people are doing that. I think they are rejecting a lot of the kind of, you know, mainstream way of looking at things and embracing different body types. And we've had, we've come a long way in that, I think, since you and I grew up. But I think that that kind of power is really interesting because you mentioned there's that. But you also mentioned the invisibility, which is taking away the power. Cause you're not seen, you're not valued, you're not heard, you're not appreciated.
Yes, but Sarah, you're looking at it the wrong way. If you use your invisibility, then you can get away with so much shit.
It's a superpower, it's great. What do you get away with? Are you shoplifting or what?
Oh, no, no, no. But you can, you know, you can work your way in there. They're not noticing that you're working your way in there and then bang. You do or say whatever it is that's necessary and people go, oh, oh, didn't realise you were there. It's very powerful.
Yeah, interesting. That is so true. This week's sponsor is Altina Drinks and this feels super relevant for me right now because I've actually been trying to cut back on alcohol. I went to India, I went cold turkey. I'm just trying to have a glass or two of wine a week now. Altina Drinks is for you. If you're really trying to cut back on alcohol or give up and you just need that ritual at the end of the day or at a celebration or somewhere in your life that is tasty with complex flavours and non alcoholic. You can go to altina.com and if you put in the Code Club sandwich, you get 15% off your order. So check it out. Hello, clubbers. Do you want to hang out in real life? We are doing a bit of a roadshow. This is connected with a film called Careless by Sue Thompson. She'll come along, we'll talk about the film and getting her mum into care and the help she needed along the way and the difficulties of the whole conundrum that's at the heart of this. Other clubbers will be there in the room too. We're going to five cities. We're going to Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne and Canberra and Hobart. We'd love to see you in real life. The tickets are free. You can have a look in the show notes or go to clubsandwich.community or humanitix and Come along, we'd love to see you share some bubbles of the alcoholic and non alcoholic variety and be in the room for club sandwich. Um, yeah, so I think it's that, that sort of, you know, that richness of character I think can be developed too. Like, is that a bit of a superpower?
Well, it's the confidence that comes behind the richness of character. I mean, having been a teacher for over 40 years, I was basically a performer. When I think about teaching, you're a performer, you're standing in front of an audience. As a secondary teacher, it's every 40 minutes, you've got a new audience and you've got to suck them in, you've got to bring them in straight away. And as an art teacher, I always used to just show them the nudes all the time. And that brought especially the boys. That would bring the boys in and then they're a captive audience after that. So it's about the confidence that you have to. Have to be able to express yourself and actually be in the world.
Yeah, yeah. And I do, I think sometimes older women are portrayed as being jealous of younger women. We're jealous of them, but I actually, I'm not sure, you know, in some ways I'm jealous of them. They can rock a bikini and they're divine and they're beautiful and they can dance all night and they're wonderful. But I think sometimes they're jealous of our kind of freedom to not give
a rat our power.
Yeah.
Is what it is.
Yeah. I wish you could combine the two. I wish we could swap, like the Freaky Friday kind of thing, you know, give it to them for a day. Cause what they could do with that.
Well, you know, I've got a story about bikinis, Sarah. I was living in France for a while and one of my dearest friends is probably 20 or 30 years older than me. So she's now nearly 90 and she's always worn bikinis. Cause you know, they do that in Europe, they wear bikinis. And I was with her holidaying one year and I had my one piece on and it was 40 degrees or something. She said, what are you doing, Kerry? Wearing that ridiculous swimsuit. You need to be in a bikini. And she threw one of her bikinis at me and said, put it on, put it on. It's too hot to be wearing a one piece. And I've never, never looked back.
Really? You're a bikini wearer?
Well, because I'm invisible, Sarah.
You can be. See, I haven't worn one since I was about 30, 25.
You go down to the beach, nobody's looking at you. They're all looking at the young ones with the dental floss up their ass. They're not looking at me in a bikini.
Yeah, I get it. I get it. Good on you. Like that. Yeah, it is a superpower too. But just make sure you put your sunscreen on.
Absolutely.
All over.
Mm.
Yeah. What's interesting I'm finding at the moment is I'm kind of doing that second Saturn return. And so I'm revisiting the.
Hang on, explain this.
You know what a Saturn return is? So they say. I know, Sorry. I'm a science graduate with a sort of hippie bent. Okay. Yeah. Cause I'm a Gemini. I have two sides.
I'm a Gemini too. We're special.
Yeah, we are. We're very special. So the Saturn return is that every 27 years or so. You are completely. The Saturn is back where it was where you were born. So everything changes. And I'm doing my second Saturn return and I find myself coming back to myself when I was in my mid-20s, when I wore bikinis. And I've been going back to places that I was like Thailand and India and just kind of. She's very much. That 25, 26 year old's very much in my brain at the moment. But I was looking at something that Jameel Jamil said. She's this gorgeous, amazing actress and she always thinks about 85 year old her. So she'll often have a conversation with 85 year old her and say, should I do this? Should I take this job? Should I do this travel? Should I take on this person? What would 85 year old me think? Would she tell me to go for it? Would she say, no, don't do that? And so I'm kind of living for that future me. And I thought that was just so interesting because we don't often do that. And that's perhaps another part of the fear of aging. We don't think of ourselves in the future. We go back and revisit ourselves in the past.
I don't think about myself in the future in as much as it's a day to day proposition because, you know, I'm in the zone. The horizon is within reach now for me. So I just think, okay, I just take every day as it comes. If I just want to sit on my bed and read all day, fuck it, I'm going to. I'm a very social person. I love going out, being with my friends, seeing films and stuff. But I've always had the philosophy from when I was quite young, I would say in my 20s, to say yes to everything. Just say yes to everything, Kerry. As long as it doesn't hurt you or somebody else say yes. Because you gotta give it a go. You've gotta take every opportunity that life throws up at you.
So you've always been like that or are you doing that even more as you venture?
I've always been like that. But now that I don't have the restriction of full time work, yes, I can say yes to everything because I know I've got the time and the energy to do all the things that are offered to me or just come up by chance. You know, things just happen sometimes.
So you don't have to kind of think of that 85 year old you because you've always.
I think I'll still be doing it then given whatever limitations I'll have at 85 and I might have some, I'm probably going to have some. But I will always try and say yes to everything. Look, Sarah, I have to admit, I think it's fomo. Yeah, I think I have terrible fomo. I don't want to miss out on anything. So I'll say yes and I'll do it.
Yeah. And have you got friends who are sort of not well and not able to do what they want to do now or have had health issues that have really held them back that you kind of feel you have to.
Mm, I don't have friends that have health issues. I have friends who have very demanding lives and responsibilities. So they can't always. They're actually saying yes to all the wrong things rather than the right things.
So it still goes on. There's that wisdom of ageing, but you're still running around for everyone with the layers of care and love and looking after. Cause then you're often a grandparent or you're helping someone and we're gonna do an episode down the track on grandparenting and that kind of generation sandwich of care littleies. If you've had kids yourself and then you're doing that. So there's some things we don't learn. Like it's not all wise. Like, you know, not all older people are fabulous and not all of them wonderful and not all of them are old wise because that's a stereotype too.
But also a really big lesson for me in my life would have been when I was in my 40s and my French mother in law got motor neurone disease. So she retired at 60 from working in factories. Shit work. And she was looking forward to her retirement in the south of France in a little house that they'd built. She got motor neurone disease, and she was dead within 18 months. And I knew I was lucky to live past 60. She didn't get to enjoy her last stage of life. And I was determined that I was never going to regret growing old because it was a blessing and a gift that she didn't have.
It so is. And, you know, that's the thing. My dad retired and soon after got Parkinson's. And that's always in the back of my mind, don't wait too long. Don't wait too long to do the things you want to do, because you may not have that time afterwards. And I guess that needs to underpin this podcast, that ageing is a gift. To be able to have an aged parent is lovely and wonderful because they're alive.
And people say to me, you know, how old are you? I say, I'm 72. And they say, oh, wow, that's amazing. And I said, but it's better than the alternative, which is being dead. I'm looking forward to getting old every year, you know?
Are you?
Oh, yeah.
Why?
Well, I already am. I consider myself already to be old.
Yeah. So why are you looking forward to getting older?
Because there's just so much fun to be had. You know, there's a whole world out there. There's a whole lot of new people I haven't met yet. I'm really looking forward to it. Who knows what's gonna happen?
Yeah. And you can embrace that uncertainty.
Yeah.
And you have to embrace that uncertainty.
And as long as I look after myself and I'm very proactive with my health, you know, my mother had heart disease, and all her sisters had heart disease. I don't have heart disease, but I've got a heart surgery. Right.
Just in case.
I want him to tell me, okay, Kerry, now we have to start doing something. So I go and see him every year. He does all the tests on me, and he says, you're great. You're great at the moment, but come back and see me next year.
Yeah. So you're not kind of trying to stay alive forever like a tech bro and have your chamber, but you're kind of looking after yourself, doing all you can to stay very proactive. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because there's a big difference, I suppose, about, you know, there's aging and then there's aging well, which people talk about, which is sort of a Bit of a kind of meaningless thing in a way. But, you know, being 90 and unwell is kind of, you know, maybe you're better off being 88 and well, and,
you know, being 90 and unwell might happen, I don't know. But I'm gonna try and look after myself as best I can. Do all the, you know, colonoscopies and all that stuff, because you never know.
You never know what's around the corner. And that's why it is a gift. And you've gotta live in that day to day living. So. Yeah. I love that you had photos of older women around your mirror when you were younger. And now you're older, you're just living on the day to the day, the best of that day.
I've still got those photos.
Have you? Wow. Yep. And those people in those photos would now be in their 90s or 1/ hundreds maybe.
They'd be dead. Probably.
They'd probably be dead.
Sorry, the D word.
And that's another word. Yeah. So that impermanence is always there. That's what's reminding you of that as well. And you know, we talked about the sort of, the not caring, the power. There's also that joy and that happiness, so. Cause people talk about that happiness U curve. Right. And that it is down in your 40s and your early 50s is. Can be the hardest time of your life. And one of the reasons is you can be in the sandwich of care and work and there's so much going on. There's a lot of stress which we're gonna help people with. But it goes up after that. There's a real happiness and a joy and a lightness.
Well, I have to say, Sarah, the best thing that ever happened to me was a really horrible divorce.
Right.
Because it released me. It was a total liberation getting divorced.
So you flew up that curve.
It took a while. Took five years before I would look at another penis again. But, you know, I got there.
There's happiness in other organs though.
I know, I know. Actually, that's something we should talk about.
What?
Well, for older people, sex. Can you still have. Is it permissible? Is it acceptable to have sex?
To have sex?
Why wouldn't it be? Well, because people go, oh, no.
Well, you don't have to do it in front of people.
I know, but even talking about it, people don't want to hear you talking about it.
They don't want to think about it.
You know, I've got a great sex life. Oh, no.
Well, you know, younger people are having less sex.
They Reckon so Maybe older people are having better and more sex than the younger ones.
Yeah, yeah.
Cause we don't have to worry about pregnancy and all that stuff.
Yes. And there's another one again. That freedom and that lightness that you mentioned.
And we know our bodies, we know what we like and we're not afraid to ask for it. Sarah.
Excellent. Could be a whole episode, couldn't it?
Could be.
Alright, well we'll think about that.
Let's talk about younger men. Cause I'm not into that sort of stuff.
No, no, no, go on.
I like an intellectual equal.
Good, good. Well, if you do have a question like sex in the elderly or a topic that we should take on for the podcast, we would love you to suggest it. What is going on for you? What would you like help with? You can go to our Instagram or our Facebook. It's club sandwich community. Hellosandwich.community is our email address. Check out the website as well. You can change your name if you want, particularly if it's about sex. But we would love to hear from you. And please send this podcast to a friend or someone you know who may find it useful because this is something we're all gonna do together. We wanna help you, we wanna give you some hacks, we wanna be there with you. And we are all about the fact that if you have a ageing parent, you've got them and we have got you. Thanks so much, Kerry. See you soon.
Thanks. With. It.