Grandparenting | Maggie Dent on adding another layer to the sandwich | Club Sandwich

Hello, Sarah.

And it's super exciting, you know, because I've been a boy champion for years because I am kind of part boy. And then these little girls arrived. Oh my goodness. I really had to go off and do research because I'd forgotten how it was to be a girl. 5,000 people gave me some really great ideas about how different little girls can be from little boys. So that's an interesting mix. So

No. I've got five girls and three boys. Okay. And yeah, it's, it's been really, really interesting because every age and stage I keep saying that with your children and your grandchildren, you love and you sort of hate, right? You can't wait till they can start, you know, walking and then you can't find them. Can't wait till they talk and then you wish they'd shut up a bit. So it's the same thing when they're, when you're the grandparent, you know, there are beautiful moments. And I've written a blog about the moment that I held my first one. I actually felt heart like expanding. It was that powerful. And it took me on this mystical journey and then I realized, just like a woman becoming a mother, which is mattress sense becoming a grandparent. Particularly a female. We are. It's a new identity, and we are someone a little different, and it's

shifted on its axis. Absolutely. And you

Yeah. And it happens. It happens each time in a slightly different way. But also the other thing is, obviously, I only had sons. Oh, my gosh. When they're in labor, it is the longest hours of my life because I know all the things that could possibly go wrong. Right. Whereas, you know, guys kind of have that insight. So even if it's not my daughter, she's giving birth to my grandchild, and I'm wanting to be the silent supporter from the distance, and I just collapse in tears every time you get the news that

The research is overwhelming, which is beautiful. But let's just go back to, you know, there are cultures in the world where grandparents are still really closely embedded. You know, just have to be in Europe and watch everyone go out for dinner. Just like the whole tribe, isn't it? There's. And I think it's become more of a challenge. Well, in Australia is that we are definitely older when we are. I was really old and I had my first at 26. Everyone thought I wasn't going to breed, so. Interesting, isn't it? And now, of course, we know it's in the mid-30s to late-30s and even in the early-40s. And so that creates a difference in the gap of how old, you know, your children are going to be. And, of course, perimenopause can jump in there, too, Sarah. Which means, man, it gets really foggy and forgetful and a bit crazy as well. So those extra pressures mean we actually technically need grandparents more than ever. Absolutely. More than ever. And yet often they are also a lot older. And so, I mean, I was really a lot more active, you know, 11 years ago than I am now. You're

Yeah, but I still. You

but the boys like running up and down hills, and I've already done Achilles, so I've stopped that one.

which is, which is also gorgeous because to be really honest, if you had to choose where you want to be, you'd want to be with your grandparent, your. Your grandkids, and not necessarily your own kids or the honest to goodness. They just not only steal your heart, but the un. I. I guess it's looking at kids through a different lens again. Yeah. And the joy that I used to think. I didn't realize, even though I'm a parenting educator, that the gift of presence, not the one with ts, but the ce. Your presence. Oh, gosh, I wish I'd known it when I was a mum.

Sometimes I'll have my little grandson who's. He's now 6, but when he was about 3 to 4 and used to come for a couple of hours, I'd say, shall we go up the playground? Thinking he'd want to go up and be swung. And he's going, no, no thanks, Nanny. Shall we? You want to ride your bike? No, thanks, Nanny. I said, what do you want to do? He said, you come here. And he sit me here. You sit here. And he just wanted to build Duplo. He just wanted me here while he built. I didn't have to talk. He just wanted my presence. And when I, when it landed on me, I thought, God, I've wasted all these years thinking I have to do something.

And it's how we be.

And sometimes it's not big moments. Often parents say, oh, Maggie, I know quality time with your kids is really important. And I keep saying, yeah, but do you know about the magic of mind micro connections that says you walk past, you ruffle their hair, you wink at them. When you see them at the assembly, you smile at them. Yeah. You bump them every now and then. That's the time that we sing crazy songs in the car. It's when it's. Why a bedtime ritual? Not every night of the week. I keep saying, not every night of the week because you're going to have some days that work was crap or the kids were crap or someone's sick and I offered this one that I've been doing now for probably 16 years. And that is when you're in the right space, your child needs to know, how much do you love me? And I say, I love you more than every star in the night sky. I love you more than every grain of sand on every beach in the whole wide world. And I love you more than all the hares and all the bears. And what tends to happen is they will come back with something else. And it's that one that personalizes the. So I've had beautiful ones, like, more than all. There's poo in the zoos often and the buns on the fishes. Yeah. But one of my granddaughters said to me one day, would you love me more than all the bacteria in the world?

So when that little ritual is done by co parents, but also by grandees, if they're looking after them, it builds familiarity and safety. But that we could whisper that to them at their graduation in year 12 and they'd get tears in their eyes.

this is how deeply we need to embed these moments that don't take a lot.

you really know, there are some nights you say, of course I love you to the moon and back. Now go to bed. And of course that's okay too. I'm cooked. No, no more drifts.

It is probably the one. The most common things that needs to be addressed, to be really honest, because I do like to spoil mine, but I'm a really big believer that endless amounts of sugar is not good for you. But if you're. I'm a baker. So they often bake bickies and things with me. And yes, they're allowed to lick the beater and lick the end of the bowl. That's their kind of treat thing. I know that, you know, the. The concern around sugar for many of today's parents is a little excessive because we. It's the. It's the hidden sugars that we need to be a little bit more mindful of rather than the ones we add. And so sometimes I see children at birthday parties not allowed to have any cake because it's got sugar and stuff in it. So I think we can go too far. But with grandparents, we need to say, look there, I want those moments where I spoil them. What's acceptable? Yeah, what's acceptable? You know, and can I go and buy them an ice cream after school when I've got them? But I don't have to buy the ice cream every afternoon after school. And if I buy them something, I might buy them a tiny packet of Smarties, not a giant bag full of something. It takes hours. Can you see? I think we need to negotiate that in a common sense way,

The number one thing is it. It isn't your child this time around. You love them. They are the ones calling the choices. But we have had some pretty serious concerns and it's been coming up from grandparents coming to me over the last, particularly two years with new mums who are in their 30s, first time they've had a baby. And apparently there's a couple of apps online that tell you how to raise a baby. And it's very prescriptive and it has alarm bells and it rings when you have to get them up. You should feed them ready for bed. And that worries me enormously because one of the examples, and it was a grandfather who said it to me, he said, we've got a really super active little grandson. He's five months old and he really is wanting to move. And so in his pram or pusher, he's wanting to pull himself right up, but the mum is pushing him back, saying, no. It Sundays, not until six months.

And he's going, yeah, but not all kids are identical. Like, you've got the kids that develop early and ones that develop. And so it's almost like, I'm gonna give you the idea you can control the development of a baby, toddler child. And that apparently is really causing some stress in the grandparent world,

It's about working out what works for you.

only have to mess up a couple of times and you can be completely estranged. That is happening quite quickly. Yeah. You're not following our rules. So we. You won't be seeing them. I've. I've had them cry in my arms because of that, because they are doing exactly what they've been led to believe is the right and only way. And one of the things I keep saying is that every child ever born's never been here before, will never be here again. They're a unique being. No parenting books ever been written about them and no app has ever been done about your child. So I need you to work out who you've got and how you work around creating the environment and the attunement needed for that child to be able. I mean, I had. But

Can you see again? And so what you've got to do is if that child's not being harmed when they are with you, maybe they could sit up in that push chair when they're with you, but you might not need to report that back because it's not going to cause any harm because you're listening to what the child wants. And I feel that. So the other reason I want grandparents to consider to following the guidelines offered by parents is that it's about the predictability of the child's world. Because the biggest thing that freaks out babies, toddlers and things is what's unpredictable. So that's why we kind of try and do things around the similar time frames, like bedtime routines, this and my. That's why we do those. Because the more the brain doesn't have to predict what's going to happen, it's calmer. The calmer the child, the less likely that you're going to have the unexpected meltdown because you did accidentally cut the toast the wrong way, you gave them the wrong color cup or the water was wet in the bath. It's one of my favourites. I know. And someone's breathing.

And I love it because that's exactly what toddlers are supposed to do. Right. Again, I think we need to recognize that there is, like, way too much information out there now for parents. And I'm partly to blame. And I put my hand up and say, I'm sorry about that. But I guess, you know, what we would have done in a traditional culture is there was just. We Raised kids around all the mums together, basically there would always be a lap for your kid. Right. But also if you didn't quite know what to do, you would address an older woman. You would come and ask for advice. Now in those traditional cultures, they never gave advice without being asked,

I believe that. And the second thing, wait to be asked. And also when they've had the response, they never leave feeling worse, they leave feeling better. So how do you possibly express a concern with as much love as possible, is it really going to need to be addressed? You know, because at the end of the day they want you to love their kids. They want you also to turn up sometimes and just say, hey, how about you could go out for a coffee while we have your kids. So I'm, I put my hand up for best nanny because a couple of my families, no, one of the ones that's in Sydney when there's was still little and even now I turn up and they have to go for a sleepover in the city and have a whole night off. Yeah, that's, that's what I do.

Right, Because I would have wanted that. So I want you to say, what could I have wanted? Turning up with

how much a bit of a sleep.

Oh, man. Anything that gives any of those things. Yeah. You will get it back in bucket

also you're going to muck up. That was the other thing I thought surely as a parenting educator, my

Actually, one of my nieces said, I feel really sorry for your, for your boys, Auntie Megan. I said, why? And she said, imagine marrying into your family. I went, oh. But fortunately, and this is a tip for us all, share your muck ups. Share the moments you mucked up with your kids so that you can laugh together. So that when they muck up, they're not going to want to have to hide it. They're able to come and share it. So. Because we all do, really. And what's beautiful. And this is the thing I had to write a book about. Girlhood was our first is a is a girl. And we accidentally bumped her onto a footpath when we went to a playground one day. Now they've got such good memories, girls like, we haven't been there for a couple of years, but even when she was 5 or 6, we went to the playground. She said, that's where you dropped me on the concrete. Don't you love it? She just reminds me of how lousy we've been. So.

Yeah, yeah, that's exactly where we dropped you on the concrete.

you

son? Yeah, yeah. No. Oh, God. Yeah. I told him

in our family WhatsApp group, we've got a lovely muck up kind of tone. And yet when it's any one of the grandkids birthdays, everyone piles on with lots of love and lots of wishes. And we all know each of them, you know, are different. They've got their strengths and their annoying bits. And I think that's what we want in a family is that you don't have to turn up as a perfect child. We're just going to love you, whoever you are.

like having a favorite child. No, that's not a good idea. The other thing I want to touch on is the spoiling part. Going back to that is what gifts we buy them. I am going to say today's parents buy way too many gifts and they've got toy rooms that are bigger than most toy rooms in, you know, in play centers. And that's all because we've, you know, if you are financially lucky enough to do that. But also we've been conditioned by the consumer market that the more the better. In actual fact, what the research shows, the less the better, as long as they're ones that can be used in different ways, which of course is a traditional kind of toys. But rather than, you know, oh gosh, we'd better buy them. Check in, check in and say what would be something that they would, would be helpful for where you're at. So sometimes I've bought shows for them or in Sydney, it was a day as the zookeeper at Taronga park or for others it was, you know, a Bluey concert. So I bought experiences rather than just gifts. But always I got something I could unwrap but there was, it was more. I want something else for you to enjoy rather than just being about more gifts, more stuff.

The numbers are really high at the moment of those actually doing at least two or three days a week in order to support their families. It depends on the age of course that you're looking after. If you are looking after a toddler that can be. I mean when we were looking after a toddler at one point I had a sleep in the afternoon when they did cause I was cooked one o'. Clock. And so we have to factor in that if we are looking after them, are we still prioritizing our own health and well being around the edges of that. So back to back days can be twice as exhausting as Monday, Wednesday, Friday. I've had a few grandparents tell me as soon as we did that we had a day off in between we were much better.

Yeah, pace yourself. The other one also was how energetic. Some children are really energetic and that can really compromise you. You know I'm, I'm pretty much an energizer bunny but I know that some aren't as much and you know that's, that can be exhausting. Which playgrounds you feel safe for your children to visit. Because there are all sorts of differences there. And still parents are really hovering a lot over some of those opportunities for our kids to stretch and grow, particularly climbing nature, you know, like trees and logs. You know, that's. That's another. That's. We've got to have a conversation about. And then let's factor in the kids who have developmental exceptionalities, whether neurodivergence or they've got other significant delays. How are you helping grandparents understand what are the differences they may need in order for them to thrive in your environment? Because you know that that can be really. It's difficult enough for teachers in our schools.

totally. And a total unawareness. So

Absolutely. And how do we do that in a way that helps us? So I love it, and it's really been kind of a sweet thing, really, is that I look around my audiences so often and there are grandparents there who've come along because I want to make sure that I can support my grandkids in the best way now with the shifts and understanding of early childhood development. But when I keep on landing on the number one thing that helps our kids grow and thrive is human connectedness. It is safe. Humans who love them. Every grandparent just grows, you know, like, yeah, I can do that.

We've got proof now

Yeah, yeah.

Let's just go to one of the biggest challenges that the digital world has done to families, particularly the phone. And that is it's stolen connection time from our children right across the board. And it's not. This is not throwing parents under the bus. It's because that's how the world is now. And that the amount of time you need to be on a phone organizing school lunches or when's the concert on, or when's book week or whatever it is. But not only that, canteens have to be organized online, doctor's appointments. You know, all of these things have to be done online. And then if they have got an extracurricular activity. Then there'll be WhatsApp groups around that. That then are checking whether it's too wet. There's a game being canceled that has stolen so much time. So it can be really tricky if the older grandparent isn't savvy enough to be able to be

Yeah. Because you've got to know if they've just shifted the soccer game and that your job was to drop them off at soccer. Make sure you keep tabs on your text to see if that's been shifted around because you don't want to get to the wrong soccer ground. Like it.

Oh, my God. That would be amazing. And then the other part to it is our kids are wired now digitally, and we are. I am a firm believer. And that's part of the reason we wrote the book, is we need to work out how tech works against us so that we can work out how we can get tech to work for us so that we can raise our kids to be, you know, respectful digital citizens without needing to be harmed. And I feel we're making some really great steps forward. But for the ones who have already in the land, especially the ones age 12 to, you know, 16, it is super, super hard to maintain or cultivate a relationship with a parent, let alone a grandparent, in meaningful ways. So one of the things I. I know that works is whatever things you used to do when they were younger, they are still quite open to that. And it might be making pancakes every time you turn up. Right. It might be doing something crazy with a dog. It might be just whatever you used to do early. It's easy to hook back into that and come forward. So you might just say, let's do this for a while, then you can go back on your phone. In other words, because I really miss you. And I think the other thing that can. Because they're not used to written stuff, although we don't. You love the AI explosion, which means that now we're having to remove technology from year 12s because they're all using AI to write all their assignments. And now they're back to paper. Don't you love that? I love that.

it will. Yeah. Got all that evidence in my book. That's right. But the good news is that we can always write a note. And I'm going to tell you how powerful a written note is from a parent or a grandparent because they're so rare and they read them over and over and they keep them. I want you to, you know that, like that bedtime ritual, when it's over and over, it gets deeply embedded into the psyche of our kids. A note from a grandparent to say how much I love you and how proud I am of you. Not because of an achievement, but just because of who you are.

Old school. Honest to goodness, they will keep those messages. I've heard it so many times. You know, it's one I say to parents so often and it particularly. Sometimes it's dads. Dads sometimes find it hard to be able to say I love you as much as. Lots of them are turning up wonderfully at the moment. And thank you to all the good dads out there. I'm. There's no dads and there's no mums in playgrounds on weekends anymore. It's all dads. Don't you love it?

Babies tied on.

When we've got a dad to write a note to a child, the fundamental shift in the relationship with that child is huge. So if it works there, it can work from an older grandparent. And also long distance.

one of the few blessings, let's be honest, is the screen. And that we can do, you know, calls and we can watch each other's face now. I love it. I have a WhatsApp call with all my grandees from time to time, but I've noticed as they're getting to the tween years, they're, hi, nanny. Yeah, really good. And then gone. And I need to. Okay. Be okay about that. You know how we'd love to say. I'm just. We've called to see how you are. Tell me how your soccer's going. No, no, that's just all they're able to do at the moment. They still love you, but they're not quite capable of when they're younger. Can I show you my handstand? Can I show you my new thing? Can I show you. No, no, they're not. They're moving out. But I love that when we pry, we can turn up at birthday parties from a distance. Yep. Because we turn up while the cakes like it's all happening. Someone will have a video up and we'll get to be part of it. Whether it's on WhatsApp or a Zoom or whatever teams, anything that allows us to participate. I think, I think that's pretty cool. I know I cry each time I'm doing it from a distance

I just. I'm still there. I can hear them, I can hear the antics, I can hear all the laughter.

I'm still part of it, even if it's through a screen. It's the only good thing about them, I reckon. Except for click and collect, of course. That's

Yes, exactly.

And in a way I feel, I feel because we're also in the nastiness of what's going on in our world. I've actually found this is just anecdotal, no evidence that the pool of grandparents, we need to connect more with our grandees and our kids and they need us more because we are wired as a species to pull together when things are tough and we want to pull together with the ones we love and trust the most. So sometimes I'm feeling, you know, there is a shift of us wanting to spend a bit more time working out ways we can do that. And I love this is. I turned 70 last year and so I flew my Sydney family over to Albany and WA where I raised them and we booked a caravan park for five days. Then my sister decided to come as well and all her kids and all our. We ended up with 47 of us, all related with 23 aged 5 months of age to 16. And what was amazing is the cousins who only ever catch up at weddings, spending five nights probably with a bit of alcohol, a lot of good food, reminiscing. And so much of it was on the farm where my mum and dad were or where we went with someone else's grandparents. The grandparents were filtered through all these stories as well as the cousins. So that's what we need in childhood is to be building experiences and making memories that matter.

Sometimes it's just the picnic on the back Lawn.

they tend to be. Yeah,

So we can all cultivate that.

In those spaces. Now I want to throw out the one that. To the parents who either grandparents are either overseas or they've already shuffled on to, you know, to the other world and that is look around and see if you can adopt someone. No, no joke. Because when I was in palliative care, I helped this beautiful, lovely man die over a period of time and his wife and I became quite close and she came and looked after the boys once when we meeting or something and she turned up with two hot chooks and buckets of chips and ice creams which I thought was really gorgeous. She's a country woman. Anyway, halfway through that meal, my 8 year old son said, can you, can you be a grandma? We, we've got dodgy grandmas. That's been unkind. But they weren't as warm as Pat. They never turned up with the food. And this lovely lady Pat became our additional other loved grandmother and she came to all the 21st and their weddings and things and she became a beautiful partner. She wasn't biologically. So I reckon there's a lot of families out there that could adopt a granny nanny who's also either retired or whose family are a long way away. Seriously,

No, seriously.

It's unbelievable. Before you know it, you've got this. Yeah. Channel

Absolutely. It's better. It's great for her and it's great for us. Oh my God. So there you go. Funny world.

it's interesting because when I used to go overseas for work and stuff, I had to make a confession to the boys when I got home. I said, you know, I don't miss any of you at all anymore, but I can't stay away for more than five weeks from your children. They said, thanks, Mum, that's lovely. But that's actually what has happened.

Yeah, I've had your work. Yes. Seriously.

guidelines.

Thanks Sarah. Thanks for having me.